August 12th, 2011
04:15 PM ET

'Glimmer of hope' in Michigan as Obama pushes jobs

Holland, Michigan (CNN)  - Hope McCoy needs something to go right for a change.

The 41-year-old single mother of two has been out of work off and on since she lost her job as an engineer at a firm in 2005, a position she had held for nearly ten years.

McCoy is one of the 13.9 million people in America who were unemployed last month, more than two years after the worst recession since the Great Depression was supposed to have ended. According to the National Bureau of Economic Research, the recession ended in June 2009, but economists and administration officials have acknowledged that the economy remains weak.

For McCoy, that means scratching and saving to get by.

"I've learned what 411 is," she said. "I've used food banks. Local charities have helped quite a bit."

McCoy had earned up to $85,000 a year, with overtime, at the engineering firm. After she was downsized, she worked as a cashier at a grocery store for several months until she could find another position as an engineer at a company that paid her half her old salary to do the same work. About a year and a half later, that firm closed and she found herself jobless once again. She took a $7-an-hour part-time job at a dollar store, but had to quit when they cut back her hours so much that child care and gasoline ate up her entire paycheck.

The U.S. unemployment rate inched down a tenth of a percent in July to 9.1%, but 6.2 million people have been unemployed for at least 27 weeks and millions more are under-employed, working part time because their hours were cut or they have been unable to find a full-time position. McCoy has seen her former coworkers, other engineers, working low-paying jobs at local stores just as she did, because there are not enough good-paying ones to go around.

The ripple effects of the loss of all or part of one's salary are often great, as McCoy can attest. After spending more than $120,000 in savings to stay afloat, she could no long afford the payments on her home and lost it. She moved in with her eldest son in May, but he's been unemployed for eight months. So far, he's been able to pay his mortgage, but says time is running out for him.

"I think I'm pretty much at that point of how long I can last, so I really kind of need the work," said Mike McCoy, who worked as a software programmer for three and a half years and is now hoping to get a customer service job at a grocery store.

McCoy's story is not unusual, even in this bustling tourist town, near the shores of Lake Michigan. According to city officials, 228 Holland home owners received foreclosure notices last year and 2011 is on track to match that, with 113 foreclosure notices having gone out in between January and June.

There have been some small signs of life in the flagging economy in recent days. The Commerce Department reported retail sales rose 0.5 percent in July from the previous month, and increased 8.5 percent compared to a year ago, led by purchases of automobiles, gasoline and electronics. In another bit of positive news, the number of first-time filers for unemployment claims fell to a four-month low of 395,000 last week. Still, initial claims improved earlier this year only to begin rising again in the face of high gas prices and the Japanese earthquake and tsunami.

Americans still see the job market as weak. According to the latest CNN poll, 7 in 10 respondents say there are few jobs available in their area and only 29% believe there will be more jobs available in their communities a year from now.

It was amidst the nation’s gloomy, uncertain atmosphere that President Obama traveled to Holland on Thursday to tout a growing new industry his administration says will bring high-quality jobs not only to Holland, but to other communities as well. He visited Johnson Controls, Inc, a plant that makes advanced batteries for hybrid and electric vehicles.

"Every day, hundreds of people are going to work on the technologies that are helping us to fight our way out of this recession," Obama told the crowd at Johnson, a plant that began making the batteries with the help of stimulus funds. "That just doesn’t mean jobs in Michigan. You’re buying equipment and parts from suppliers in Florida and New Mexico and Ohio and Wisconsin and all across America."

It was the president's second trip to the city in a little over a year. He touched down here last July to attend the groundbreaking of LG Chem, another advanced battery plant.

These plant openings have been anxiously awaited by many here.

"I do have that small glimmer of hope still that there's something that's going to happen, there's something that's going to change," McCoy said during an interview in her son's kitchen. "I'm hoping with the new plants coming in that more positions will open and things like that."

LG Chem is not yet up and running and while Johnson plans to employ 320 people when it reaches full production, only 75 people work there now and it's clear there is a great deal of pent up demand in town for good jobs. Company officials say they have received more than 1,500 applications for the 320 positions - another sign that jobs are not being created quickly enough.

McCoy, who sometimes gathers cans to earn cash, is "floundering.”

"It's a situation which I know lots of people are facing,” she said. “You just don't know which way to turn or what to do next. Everywhere, everybody is seeming to lose everything they fought for."

Topics: Economy

soundoff (64 Responses)
  1. S.Positive

    Men, I feel for you HOPE, I have my stories but yours, I am praying to the Lord to provide you a new job opportunity. I also praying that the Lord will continue to bless our president and his team with the wisdom to put more job creating plans to help folks back to work. That is my prayer.

    August 12, 2011 at 5:03 pm |
    • LNB

      I feel the same way. We have got to make sure our President stays in office. The alternative would be very bleak.

      August 13, 2011 at 2:20 am |
      • Howard

        Abraham Lincoln was right ... Obama can't fool all of the people all of the time ... and, even with the mainstream media constantly promoting him, and making excuses for him, the people are finally beginning to see what an abject failure Obama really is.

        August 14, 2011 at 12:31 pm |
      • jean2009

        And neither can the teapotty fool all the people...what with their being funded by Richard Mellon Scaife, the Koch Brother , big oil, big pharm, and the other groups that do not mean well for Americans.

        August 14, 2011 at 1:56 pm |
      • Howard

        LNB, it's people like you, blind fanatical Obama loyalists, who are bringing America to its knees. America is MORE important than Obama, and it's time for you Obama suckers to open your eyes, and shift your loyalty from Obama to America, if you want to save this great country of ours !!!

        August 15, 2011 at 12:29 pm |
    • Howard

      If Obama is such a good president, why does he have to spend a BILLION dollars to get reelected ???

      August 13, 2011 at 3:01 pm |
      • jean2009

        Ever ask yourself why Richard Mellon Scaife and the Koch Brothers are funding the Teaparty, and how much they are putting up? TRUTH TO POWER.

        August 13, 2011 at 3:21 pm |
      • Edog

        Hey Howard,

        Try asking yourself this, "we have had historically low interest rates for 9 years now, since the BUSH tax cuts. Where are the jobs?????" If we need to keep tax rates so low to make sure BUSINESS creates jobs? Where are the jobs???? The tax rates have been low for 9 years now! Where are the JOBS!!!

        August 13, 2011 at 10:34 pm |
  2. jean2009

    I'm hoping someone thinks now is the best time to go full in on new technologies...wind, solar, wave and other renewable energies that we don't need to import, or foul the environment with. That alone could create plenty of jobs and by so doing they would support many other jobs.

    I'm still wondering where all the jobs the Bush tax cuts for billionaire's were suppose to create...all they really proved is trickle-down doesn't work.

    August 12, 2011 at 6:24 pm |
    • Howard

      Maybe you should wonder where all the 'shovel ready' jobs Obama promised are ??? The only way Obama, who has never had a job himself, could create jobs is by squandering even more money we don't have, on useless government jobs that simply suck more money out of our economy.

      August 12, 2011 at 8:51 pm |
      • LNB

        (Howard again.. Oh are so wrong... once again. Can't even bother with you) Jean, you are so right !!!! ...and I see the same vision. GOPers think alternative energy is unpatriotic and want to keep all subsidies for oil in place, while cutting subsidies to wind, solar, etc. Kind of like climate change....does not exist. And with this new crop of TP right wingers, they will further destroy the nation. Bush's tax cuts during war was a crony move and it has gutted the revenues that help to build and sustain the US. Obama 2012

        August 13, 2011 at 2:29 am |
      • jean2009

        If you go to it has an interactive map where you can type in your zip code the map shows where stimulus money is being provided in the form of grants, loans and contracts for your area.

        Some states and cities have done a better job of going after these jobs. For just my own zip code I find 24 projects that in the last two years or currently are being funded by stimulus money. This has made for some heavy road construction, several new schools, renovation and enlargement of 2 existing schools, water treatment improvement, campus construction project.

        In looking at the map I find our area hasn't fared nearly as well as some others in the state....and Ohio hasn't fared as well as California, New York, Texas, and Washington State. It looks as if some states just haven't taken advantage of the stimulus money.

        I really wonder what is wrong with states when they don't do that for their citizens. Some cry about stimulus being me. I feel if funds are being sent back to the states it is time for someone to be committed to bringing home the bacon.

        I look at these 5 new school built within the last two years and think how three of them replaced schools built at the turn of the last century...that is great.

        August 13, 2011 at 12:49 pm |
      • maikl

        100 % agree. Beside kva-kva-kva nothing else. Where is yes we can, where is change? Another vacation coming up.

        August 13, 2011 at 1:45 pm |
      • jean2009

        I would say he has held plenty of jobs from the time he was old enough to work to now.

        Lawyer, Illinois State Senator,for 8 years, U.S. Senator, Editor of the Harvard Law Review, Author of six books, College Professor, for 12 years, Community Organizer, served on the board of several non-profit foundations, worked at a Baskin-Robbins, worked at a gift shop, worked at a deli making sandwiches, processed health records for the fire and police department, worked as a telemarketer selling magazine subscriptions....and let us not forget President of the United States.

        August 13, 2011 at 3:43 pm |
      • Monching

        Did you also see all those fake zip codes that were reported in that site? If you do not know about it, just type "fake zip codes stimulus" in Google and it will return several topics about it.

        August 15, 2011 at 12:57 am |
      • jean2009

        @ Monching I know where the real jobs are in my zip code I can drive by them every day. As for that phony number floating around on the internet the recovery site says it doesn't exist. Sounds like another Teapotty myth.

        August 15, 2011 at 3:47 pm |
    • LNB

      Me, too. I wonder why that is not a focused talking point Every Time the GOP or Pea Tardy brings up jobs. It has been 11 years~ enough time for trickle down. But, as we know, it has been trickle up. We have got to keep our guy in office.

      August 13, 2011 at 2:22 am |
      • jean2009

        You bet, and we can't stop informing each person of their records, and point out when and where they are wrong when they misrepresent dates, numbers, and facts.

        August 13, 2011 at 3:09 pm |
      • Howard

        LNB ... YOU AGAIN ??? You, Jean, and Liz are obviously Obama groupies, or cult members, who live to spread the gospel of your false prophet, Barack Obama. It's people like you, blind fanatical Obama loyalists, who are bringing America to its knees. America is MORE important than Obama, and it's time for you Obama suckers to open your eyes, and shift your loyalty from Obama to America, if you want to save this great country of ours !!!

        August 15, 2011 at 12:33 pm |
      • jean2009

        @Howard on a White House site I would expect to find supporters of President Obama...I wonder why you would even question the obvious.

        August 15, 2011 at 3:54 pm |
    • Howard

      JEAN, it's people like you, blind fanatical Obama loyalists, who are bringing America to its knees. America is MORE important than Obama, and it's time for you Obama suckers to open your eyes, and shift your loyalty from Obama to America, if you want to save this great country of ours !!!

      August 15, 2011 at 12:27 pm |
      • jean2009

        It is the tea soaked nuts who are bringing the country to its knees.

        August 15, 2011 at 3:52 pm |
  3. sara

    This is what the republican party wants for this nation and it's people. Hope, I experienced the same starting in 2007, and every job since has been at an even lower wage. Without any bennies, such as healthcare.

    August 12, 2011 at 7:15 pm |
    • LNB

      Yep. That is called the Rick Perry Plan. And he took the stimulus all the while saying he did not want it. At a time when all of Texas was republican. All the jobs he created he did with stimulus money. But all the jobs are min. wage ( which Bachmann wants to get rid of) with no bennies or health care. Gov Rick Perry. I mean PARRY!!!

      August 13, 2011 at 2:33 am |
      • LNB

        He deemed it not important to create infrastructure high wage jobs with bennies. And 17% was immigrant labor. And most of the jobs were Walmart or Wendy's. No real sustainable employment. He was the one who squandered. Soo when he touts his jobs bill in Texas....look real closely at, too Howard.

        August 13, 2011 at 2:36 am |
  4. LNB

    By immigrant I meant illegal .....

    August 13, 2011 at 2:37 am |
  5. LNB

    August 13, 2011 at 2:41 am |
  6. heleneclark

    When it comes to unemployment it’s been a tale of two recessions, with level of education playing an unprecedented role in whether you’ve been pink slipped or not. Getting a degree from "High Speed Universities" is the only solution

    August 13, 2011 at 5:14 am |
  7. seriously?

    hope and change.... let's hope that there is a change at the whitehouse.

    August 13, 2011 at 6:17 am |
  8. Rick McDaniel

    Obama's jobs program is non-existent. The only thing he is doing NOW, is campaigning, with jobs being nothing but a talking point. He has zero idea how to create jobs, and his entire plan, is simply to encourage corporations to create jobs...........when in fact, they have done nothing but ship jobs off shore.

    Obama needs to open his eyes to something besides campaign donations.

    August 13, 2011 at 9:08 am |
    • maikl

      How you open something when you don't have. For 3 years just kva-kva-kva. Where is change, yes we can- b.s. American people got experiment to vote for inexperience man and what we got. I too vote for obama. Please, forgive me. I show real change in 2012.

      August 13, 2011 at 1:40 pm |
  9. Lisa Lamour

    Hey, everyone, before you vote again for this guy, please check into some of the executive orders he's been handing down without congressional approval. Specifically, look into executive order 13575 and see what he has planned for the farming/rural community.

    August 13, 2011 at 12:36 pm |
  10. jean2009

    Rick Perry's Texas Record:
    Highest record of teen pregnancy and reoccurring pregnancy.
    Highest rate of children without health insurance, and the highest number of people living at or below the poverty level.
    The state's educational standards are one of the lowest in the nation. They rank 36th in the nation for high school graduates, and 3.8 million Texans do not have a high school diploma. They rank from 47th to 49th in SAT scores. His policies of cuts have only exacerbated the problem.
    The state is a tax free haven for millionaires.
    Texas has a $14 Billion dollar deficit.
    The State spending under Perry started at $49 Billion and is now $90 is that reducing the size of government?
    The state debt to GDP ration is 22.9% or $10,645. per citizen.
    The job growth he brags about is for minimum wage jobs with no benefits. Texas has the highest number of citizens working at minimum wage or lower of any state. In 2007, Texas had 221,000 residence making minimum wages, or less, and by 2010 that number has increased to 550,000. Texas is a low-wage, no benefits, deficit-ridden state.
    Perry wanted to have a company from Spain build a super highway from Mexico to Canada and charge a toil for using it. That was to be his NAFTA corridor.
    Rick Perry supported mandatory immunization of Texas teen-aged girls against STD HPV as his chief of staff was a former Merck lobbyist.
    He also talked of Texas succeeding from the now he wants to be everyone's president????

    He is playing by the Hitler handbook...wrap yourself up in a flag, refer to God and the bible often, and care only about the Aryan few. All I see is a Pharisee...who can't go into a closet to pray (wasn't that what Jesus said) ....and the last thing this country needs is another president from Texas. We haven't recovered from the last one.

    August 13, 2011 at 3:03 pm |
    • Howard

      It's people like you, blind fanatical Obama loyalists, who are bringing America to its knees. America is MORE important than Obama, and it's time for you Obama suckers to open your eyes, and shift your loyalty from Obama to America, if you want to save this great country of ours !!!

      August 15, 2011 at 12:28 pm |
      • jean2009

        Isn't happening.....

        "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." ~John Kenneth Galbraith

        August 15, 2011 at 6:49 pm |
  11. Dan

    Batteries, batteries, batteries. Clean energy. Some folks have forgotten where the energy comes from to recharge those batteries.

    August 13, 2011 at 3:40 pm |
    • jean2009

      See Clean Energy Innovation Policy The Battery Innovation Act of 2011. We definitely don't want to be buying all our clean energy batteries from China. That would be like our currently buying oil from the middle east. Our current batteries are too reliant on rare metals and electricity to recharge them.

      August 13, 2011 at 4:00 pm |
      • Dan

        My point was that batteries for cars are not a primary source of energy. Many will still be recharged from "unclean" sources. A friend of mine, Clay Hillis, bought a hybrid. The air conditioner is so poor he parks it in the afternoon. I favor all forms of energy that can survive without govt. subsidy: oil, gas, wind, solar.

        August 13, 2011 at 5:34 pm |
      • Jay in NC

        @ Dan, Jean is so closed minded she will never see the truth. We all like the idea of clean cars, but all those batteries being made will have a negative impact on the world. Also how do they expect to ship these batteries, with electricity? , it will take diesel, old fashion diesel.

        August 13, 2011 at 9:25 pm |
      • jean2009

        @Dan I would suggest reading the pdf : NRCD Fuel Cell Vehicle Development if China.

        As for your friends vehicle. I would say the first years might not produce the best, but improvements will come.
        My son and his wife own a hybrid and they love it....besides I think it great that federal grant dollars are being spent for R&D for American business and American workers.....instead of for killing people in oil rich countries.

        August 14, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
    • jean2009

      @ Dan You must not be keeping up with the latest in battery technology. There are several types and some do not require a plug in to electrical outlet. That is why the grant. Even George W. Bush praised Johnson Controls for its research back in 2006.

      As for environmental impact. I think it is fair to say gasoline powered vehicles have environmental impact, as do those using natural gas (fracking), as does annual crop bio-fuels, as does oil shale mining, Heaven knows I don't subscribe to scientific magazine just for the cover picture.

      You may want to link to Johnson Controls website and research the various type batteries they are working on, and maybe read the last week issue of Time Magazine which has a good article about battery powered automobiles.

      So are you another Jay, who has an American industry death-wish? That would rather we go under as an industrial nation and buy everything from China?

      I would much rather spend our time and our money on keeping

      August 14, 2011 at 3:06 pm |
      • jean2009

        American industry here.

        August 14, 2011 at 3:08 pm |
  12. Liz Carter in Georgia

    Amen Edog!

    August 13, 2011 at 11:07 pm |
  13. Megsmom

    Why does Obama have a social security number reserved for Connecticut despite the fact that the president has never lived in the Constitution State?

    August 14, 2011 at 8:01 am |
    • jean2009

      Posting without checking snopes again? That one is a false.

      August 15, 2011 at 6:53 pm |
  14. MalibuChick

    The CNN loveliest for Obama continues.

    August 14, 2011 at 1:23 pm |
  15. Liz Carter in Georgia

    That's true Jean...but you know there is a certainly element of the US population who just love to fight, kill and take. This element even makes money off of perpetually fighting and people dying; and it doesn't matter from whose side either! War is Wealth to many of our American brothers and sisters! They've been known for starting up discourse in order to 'fake a reason' to go to war and make it look like it's the other parties fault; Oh, they started it! Gen Patton even suggested it about RUSSIA once!

    August 14, 2011 at 3:56 pm |
  16. miguel

    Maybe this money could help OUR economy primarily since it was earned HERE.
    How many migrants does it take to remit $21 billion a year
    back to Mexico?
    14,000,000 illegals sending home $1,500 a year

    10,000,000 illegals sending home $2,100 a year

    5,000,000 illegals sending home $4,200 a year

    Did they undercount how many Illegals here?

    "Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more
    in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal
    burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002."

    "A May 28, 2004 study by Bendixen & Associates found that legal
    and illegal immigrants send a total of $30 billion to their home
    countries on an annual basis. Mexico receives $13.3 billion a year.
    The largest amount in remittances ($9.6 billion) is sent from
    California, followed by New York ($3.6 billion), Texas
    ($3.2 billion) and Florida ($2.5 billion). Of those surveyed by
    the study, 24% were Latin American-born U.S. citizens, 39% were
    legal residents, and 32% were illegal aliens. Sixty-one per cent
    of those surveyed send remittances overseas at least once a month.
    A typical remittance is between $150 and $250."

    August 14, 2011 at 4:08 pm |
    • jean2009

      I would suggest reading: Undocumented Workers Pay More Taxes Than Major U. S. Corporations

      Or: Undocumented Immigrants Pay More Taxes Than Wealthy @Care 2

      August 15, 2011 at 7:04 pm |
  17. joe

    Obama's first priority is to get reelected the guliable people that belive this snake oil saleman are crazy
    the only way to make jobs is to give companies insentives to create them. you don't do that by taxing
    My Company has 35 workers give me some tax breaks and I'll be able to exspand my company and Hire 5 to 10 more
    Tax me and i'll stay where I am or cut back on people. I;m not going to expand my company just so I can pay more takes

    August 15, 2011 at 7:31 am |
    • jean2009

      Please explain what is an "insentives"? Do mean incentives? That would be like the $299 Million grant provided Johnson Controls Batteries to R&D new fuel cell battery I guess he is already a jump ahead of you.

      August 15, 2011 at 7:12 pm |
  18. joe


    August 15, 2011 at 9:31 am |
    • S.Positive

      Joe, do not make fun of this woman's plight. You are only asking for trouble. Remember what goes round comes round. You and your lot like Howard and Jay should for once, SHOW some heart. If you have one that is...

      August 15, 2011 at 5:05 pm |
      • joe

        Take a pill I'm talking about Obama don't try to make it look like I'm insulting women you low life liberals alway try to turn comments to your favor

        August 15, 2011 at 5:14 pm |
  19. California Conservative

    Obama's been pushig jobs his whole presidency while blaming everyone else from Bush to the Tea Party.

    Obviously in between there we didn't have a leader but a finger pointer is all.

    August 15, 2011 at 1:23 pm |
    • jean2009

      He didn't have to point a finger, anyone with an ounce of sense knows were the current mess started with 2 unfunded wars and tax-cuts for the wealthy. George W. Bush never meet a tax-cut, war, or an unfunded mandate he didn't like.

      August 15, 2011 at 7:17 pm |
  20. mress

    The situations like hers will not change anytime soon. The job she used to have actually helped make dollar store and customer service jobs possible for others! Now the state is the primary employer or check writer in many Michigan towns. The O isn't doing anything to turn this around.He is unqualified and unmotivated. The unions in this state need to be shown the door instead of holding it open for zero to walk through and spew his crap at us again in hope of reElection!.

    August 15, 2011 at 1:39 pm |
  21. Vic of New York

    The Right Wing continues to kill America. The TEA Party continues to follow the Pied Piper (Koch Bros) mindlessly into the abyss, the Bankers continue to reap in profits while shrugging off ownership of foreclosed properties, ... and dingos like "California Conservative" continue *itch and crow like they're not responsible for the mess their Party created!

    Yes, I WOULD have liked Obama to prosecute the Bush Administration: Rove for Treason, Cheeney for War Crimes, and Bush for gross incompetance – but he didn't. I would have liked Obama to have done a bigger Stimulus to boot strap this economy – but he didn't. I would have liked Obama t do a single-payer health care system that would have lowered all our costs – but he didn't. Mostly – I would LOVE for Obama to put his FOOT UP THE AS*'S of the recalcitrant extremist Republican "Stupids". Well, hope is eternal – but the morons who ruined this country are REAL. And God will burn this earth before another Conservative runs our govenrment if I have anything to do with it!

    August 15, 2011 at 3:16 pm |
    • joe

      you forgot to blame Bush for the Kennedy assassination you moron

      August 15, 2011 at 5:19 pm |
      • jean2009

        There is plenty to blame him for without going that far back...nice try but doesn't fly.

        August 16, 2011 at 10:43 am |
  22. Liz Carter in Georgia

    You go Vic of New York, I agree with your post 100%! Had OBAMA been passing on the Presidential Mantle to GWB, and had left behind the exact same executions and implementations of failed policies that Bush/Cheney did, they would've already been charged, convicted, fined and sentenced! They'd already be doing time! That would've been the first thing the BUSH administration would've done, once they got settled in! Had OBAMA gone in blasting that, I bet we could've heard a 'rat pee on cotton' in AMERICA!

    August 15, 2011 at 6:08 pm |
  23. Liz Carter in Georgia

    Well Joe, why hadn't you and the rest of your company owner fraternity club been doing that already? Why hadn't you all been creating jobs and hiring people all these years? You've been enjoying BUSHS' tax-cuts for at least 10 years! Jobs were being sent overseas even before that, and continued to do so even after that! Furthermore, the taxes that are being requested of you are the true taxes that you all should've been paying all along, but for the 'taxcuts'. It's boiling down to NO JOBS/NO MORE TAXCUTS!!

    August 15, 2011 at 6:47 pm |
  24. Liz Carter in Georgia

    Oh! To answer your smart remark that we hadn't blamed BUSH for the JOHN F KENNEDY assassination; he probably was off somewhere hitting the bottle. LOL! He found out about it the same time we did. First Lady Jackie Kennedy begged her husband not to go, but he went on anyway. Oh yes, Daddy Bush probably knew about it; he was an official at the CIA. You think we ought to blame him? Watch your mouth! Don't open up another can of worms that you 'con artists', may have to try to put the lid back on or debunk!LOL

    August 15, 2011 at 7:30 pm |
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