 Holly Petraeus, assistant director for service member affairs at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, participates in a Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee hearing on Capitol Hill, on November 3, 2011. The committee heard testimony from Petraeus on protecting veterans and active service members and their families in the consumer financial marketplace.
November 3rd, 2011
03:29 PM ET
White House: Military families at risk by leaderless Consumer Financial Protection Bureau The White House is again pressuring Republicans in the Senate to support the nomination of Richard Cordray as head the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The latest pressure point: military families. In a conference call with reporters, White House officials cited the importance of the CFPB in the lives of service members to protect them from predatory lenders, certain types of installment loans and debt collectors who often harass service members during active duty. Pegging this latest push to today’s testimony before the Senate banking committee by Holly Petraeus – head of Servicemember Affairs at the CFPB – representatives from the Treasury Department, the National Economic Council and the Executive Office of the President explained why the CFPB’s ability to help military families was effectively neutered by not having a director. "The way the statute works, until such time as the CFPB gets a director it will not have the authority to supervise and enforce all these various consumer protection laws, with respect to payday lenders, debt collectors, etcetera, etcetera, the kinds of firms that we're talking about…that are preying on military families,” said Deputy Treasury Secretary Neil Wolin. Cordray’s nomination recently passed out of the banking committee on a party-line vote, with all 10 Republican members voting in opposition, and Senate Republicans have vowed to block his nomination if it ever comes to the floor. On today’s call Stephanie Cutter – a deputy senior advisor to President Obama – used Mrs. Petraeus’ testimony as proof that military families are hurt by such Republican opposition. Citing a specific question from Republican Sen. Richard Shelby about whether the CFPB had enough resources to do its job, Cutter quoted Mrs. Petraeus as saying that while the resources are there to the job, “they're not able to actually do the work.” “She's very eager for the day when our non-bank supervision team can – if I can use an analogy – stop circling the airfield and get permission to land and start their work,” Cutter said, quoting from Mrs. Petraeus’ testimony. “She's referring there that the CFPB is unable to actually do its work to protect military families because Richard Cordray has not been confirmed and a director is not in place of the CFPB." While denying that a recess appointment was being considered as an option for Cordray’s nomination, Cutter was very clear that their efforts today to point out exactly how powerless the CFPB is due to opposition “of a minority of the United States Senate is very much indeed part of the strategy of getting him confirmed.” In addition to both the conference call and Mrs. Petraeus’ testimony, the White House also released a fact sheet explaining exactly how military families are particularly at risk of succumbing to dubious lending practices. Citing Defense Department statistics showing that nearly 50% of enlisted service members are under the age of 25, the administration tried to emphasize that much of the military may be inexperienced in financial matters and might not possess sufficient savings to act as a cushion in the case of a mistake. “We are seeing a rise in troubling practices with respect to lenders targeting military families,” Deputy Director of the National Economic Council Brian Deese said on the call. “Congress has acted to provide protections to military families in capping interest rates for certain products, but what we're seeing is, through a combination of internet lending activities and other lending activities, lenders are skirting the rules here and providing loans that are – that have deceptive characteristics to these families.” Deese also pointed to a drastic increase in money received for military education by private student loan providers as evidence that these lenders have “targeted the military community in a very aggressive way.” |
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If it was me as President, I would use recess appointment to fill every single vacancy I could and tell the GOP to gp suck eggs. What would the GOP do... vote NO on any and all bills I wanted to get passed?
DAK,
If the next GOP president did the same, would you object? The victims of these games would be...US! To me it's like line item vetos. BOTH sides want it but neither side wants the other side to have it!
You ask "if the next GOP president did this, would I object?" No, I wouldn't if the situation was the same. If the Dems had voted "No" to everything, held up nominations over trivial things (some of which have no bearing on the appointments blocked) and have constantly lied about everything the GOP President wanted to do. If Congress will not act, if Congress will not help solve this country's problems (and in fact, are the cause of most of the problems they will not solve) then I say let the President do as he must to move forward. Makes no difference as to party... We ALL must work together, as Americans for America, to fix the problems we face and this constant, three-years worth of nothing but inaction or out-right lies has got to stop.
@ DAK,
"We ALL must work together, as Americans for America, to fix the problems we face"
That is the answer! Until then it will remain party vs party and America will be stuck in the middle. It is a party first mentality in DC.
@ Steveo Don't act as if GOP Presidents haven't, in the past, done the same thing? George W. Bush made 40 such recess appointments.
Since the Rethugliklans keep blocking recess appointments..President Obama could adjourn congress for the full 3 days and make his recess appointments. A President has the constitutional right to do so. But, no president has of yet used that right...this might be the time. Richard Cordray is from Ohio, he is a good and decent man.
@steveo If memory serves George Bush made 40 recess appointments.
jean2009
@ Steveo Don't act as if GOP Presidents haven't, in the past, done the same thing? George W. Bush made 40 such recess appointments. Since the Rethugliklans keep blocking recess appointments..President Obama could adjourn congress for the full 3 days and make his recess appointments. A President has the constitutional right to do so. But, no president has of yet used that right...this might be the time. Richard Cordray is from Ohio, he is a good and decent man.
---------–
I am not sure what's up with you and Trace. You guys liek to put words in my mouth! I KNOW other Presidents have done the same thing! The reason I asked the question to DAK is because BOTH parties play T-I-T for T-A-TA_Tdsue ! theGOP presN
@ jean,
sorry. I sent this out before I was ready!
@ Steveo Don't act as if GOP Presidents haven't, in the past, done the same thing? George W. Bush made 40 such recess appointments. Since the Rethugliklans keep blocking recess appointments..President Obama could adjourn congress for the full 3 days and make his recess appointments. A President has the const-itutional right to do so. But, no president has of yet used that right...this might be the time. Richard Cordray is from Ohio, he is a good and decent man.
---–
I am not sure what's up with you and Trace. You guys like to put words in my mouth! I KNOW other Presidents have done the same thing! The reason I asked the question to DAK is because BOTH parties play T-I-T for T-A-T. The Dems do it because the GOP did it and the GOP did it because the Dems did it! That is all I'm trying to say!
I'm sure he would too, but they keep pulling a sneaky trick by leaving 1 representative behind. That way they are not technically on recess. That's why he hasn't been able to do recess appointments.
LoL why single out only the military...this whole agency only protects one group military families? What's next seniors rolling off another cliff?
The agency CFPB doesn't protect just one group of people it protects everyone including seniors, military, and students... As per usual, the Greedy Old People want a department that is without leadership...that way it is easier for the 1% to rip off those who are not savvy.
Gee lets use military to push this adgenda, while we are threatening to fire 1.16 million of them in another leading CNN article Checking the Pentagon's job loss math by Jennifer Rizzo, CNN. I guess it is ok to fire them but do not let that stop some political appointee from nomination. Perhaps they need have another Solyndra style campaign contributor who is looking for some graft
My God, is no one able to look out for himself anymore? What a joke,
Good point Ray. In addition to that, the military has financial counseling services available to military members and their families. If you have been around any military installation you will find tons of predatory lending establishments, pawn shops, and used car dealers waiting to pounce. I agree with you though, the first line of defense is personal responsibility and learning to live within your means! 18 and 19 years olds have a hard time hearing that, especially when there is a check coming in every 2 weeks! I remember as a young military guy, recieved some sound advice from my boss. I went to his home for Thanksgiving and he showed me his furniture and some other belongings! he asked me if I liked what I saw, I said yes. He then said "It ttook me 20 years to get this, don't try to get this in 5"! Good advice! Folks want to keep up with the Joneses without knowing the financial mess the Joneses are in!
There is a difference in "looking out for oneself" and being taken advantage of. There is nothing wrong with laws that protect the consumer when the businesses have proven time and time again they are only out for one thing: PROFIT at the expense of honesty and integrity. I am not saying consumers need a babysitter, just a referee. We have warning labels on cigarettes, why can't we have manditory disclosures on contracts that spell out exactly what will happen and when and how much it will cost? Then if the soldier (in this case) signs it, too bad, so sad.
I do agree with Steveo's comment too, BTW. I learned by doing it wrong and paying "extra" when I first enlisted and for the first 2 years had no money left over after bills and to make it worse, had nothing to show for those bills other than junk that had already broken way before it was paid off.
DAK,
If I am not mistaken didn't Congress address this already with Truth in Lending"? My greatest financial lessons were the results of messing up and the years it took to recover! Sometimes the best lessons are accompanied by a little pain, at least in my case!
DAK
It's one thing to compare/contrast "looking out for one's self" and being taken advantage of. It's another to continuously push the responsibility to the gov't to look out for us. Is it "being taken advantage of" when you choose to not wear a seatbelt? Yet our nanny state has created law after law on us protecting ourselves. They haven't had to outlaw jumping off a cliff, yet you don't see that as a common occurance.
As a further point directly tied to financial situations (not unlike the issues that brought about the housing collapse)–there is really nothing preventing you from calling up on a credit card offer and fudging your income for a higher limit, then taking that card to your local electronic store and buying a $5000 TV you couldn't otherwise afford with your new found "wealth." Then later declaring bankrupcy, extinguishing the debt on the backs of all other responsible creditors. Who's "fault" is that? Yours? The credit card companies for extending credit? the electronic store for not verifying you can pay the debt back? The tv company for making you "want" the TV through their advertisements? Gov't for not protecting you from your own ignorance? Your parents/schools for not teaching you about responsible credit?
We all need to stop the "it's not my fault" mentality. The gov't cannot outlaw poor decisions, though they continue to try. (well I guess they can, but it doesn't prevent it from happening). It just leads to the brainless masses we see everyday believing they don't need to think because the gov't is going to protect them from all of the dangers of the world.
And further, these are civil matters. If you sign a contract that is then altered or the company doesn't live up to, you can sue them for damages. The "manditory disclosures" you ask for are already there, particularly on large purchases (cars and homes), and are 3 times as confusing as the traditional agreements.
If someone doesn't like the terms (or lack there of) of an agreement, there is nothing forcing them to sign it. We have every right to take our business elsewhere. Unfortunately we are:
1. A bunch of pansies who are afraid to speak up for ourselves; and/or
2. Becoming so reliant on gov't to protect us, that we feel "safe" in making uneducated decisions, because if they were bad choices, the gov't wouldn't allow it to happen, would it?
@ C-Lo What good is having a well managed government if it doesn't protect consumers? You amaze me with your lack of in depth knowledge.
@ Jean–My "lack of in-depth knowledge"?
To what exactly are you referring–your post about "well managed gov't" who "cannot protect consumers"? That is my point exactly...we keep turning to the gov't to protect us, leaving us even more vulnerable. Then the gov't passes crap like seatbelt laws in an effort to "protect us from ourselves."
It leads to situations like the listeria outbreak...we now expect gov't to watch over every aspect of our lives...there was a (assumed) gov't "official" (FDA or FDA Contracted) who had recently performed a review of the Jensen farming operation where the listeria is found to have originated. They were either asleep at the wheel, ignorant about their job, paid off, or the policies/procedures were not clearly outlined. Now, everyone wants to sue the farm, distibutor, and since those pockets aren't deep enough, the supermarkets.
I think it's your ignorance that is frightening...that you believe the gov't is the solution to every ill and potential danger in society. We've created a society so reliant on gov't for everything from protecting us from illness to bad contracts to crossing the street, we've stopped thinking for ourselves. It doesn't take a Harvard or MIT graduate to understand the simple concept of contract law in the US. If you've signed a contract in good faith (i.e. not coerced, impaired, under age, etc.) regardless of the positive or negative consequences, you are responsible for the content of that contract. A 10 minute conversation about that and 20 minutes about credit and paying it back with interest is all a parent has to do 7 times during the rearing of their kid (it takes hearing something 7 times to understand it, so they say).
Thanks to Hillary, we now know it is not our responsibility as parents to teach our kids anything–it is the responsibility of the village, so when our kids don't learn, turn them over to the gov't to protect, right? In America today, more and more kids are not born to families looking to raise a person, they are either tax credits or hobbies. Make everyone else do the hard work–we'd rather occupy wall street screaming for handouts from the wealthy than get our hands dirty picking lettuce. And why not? The gov't (taxpayer) will take care of you when you choose not to take care of yourself, right?
@ Ray E. Georgia
You must remember that a majority of our military is made up of young and financially inexperienced people. Most are not college graduates, they at best are just out of high school, many are away from home on their own, for the first time. Remember the old saying "there is a sucker born every minutes." in young students, young military service members, and the elderly you are looking at three groups ripe for rip-offs. Certainly you read or hear of these scams every day on the evening news.
It is sad to see people on this site who would rather vulnerable people be ripped off than be protected. I sometimes wonder why our military is so loyal to some of these creeps in society.
Jean2009, I was one of those young financially inexperienced ones! The military offered financial seminars! Yet I still made mistakes yet I worked myself out of them. Me and NOT the government! It still starts with PERSONAL responsibility!
@steveo From where do you think the funding for the financial seminars came? Which department do you think provided the experienced personal to teach the seminars?
I personally don't think you read the full article which pointed out that the military is currently being singled out for online scams. Although I doubt if that is the only group. As a senior who lives in a condo I know of several cases of the elderly being targeted. Especially those with early stages of Alzheimer's.
Jean2009,
what you don't realize is I agree with you. I am aware that the elderly are also targeted and believe it or not that makes me sick! These folks deserve force of the law! At the same time, won't yo agree there are folks who get into themselves into situations because they did not read the fine print? There are those who are most vulnerable like the elderly who especially deserve protection, there are folks like me who had to learn hard way but did and there are those who seem to need to be protected from themselves. I realize the financial training I received was funded by the tax payer! There will always be those who never seem to learn!
@ Steveo
Even though you say you agree with me which maybe you do ....you lack the ability to see that some people (both young and old) have not received any training or education about how to read (or understand) a lease, a purchase agreement, the fine points of insurance coverage, a loan or mortgage contract.. The one area in which schools really fail students is in the business of negotiating their way through the financial maze of everyday life. Much of the problem is in the fact that reading skills are such that some do not comprehend what they have read.
As a senior with a disabled husband, I have to go over every medical bill line by line to make sure it has been submitted and the primary and co-pays have been paid before paying any balance. However, I know many who are unable to navigate that maze and wind up paying a bill, that should have been submitted to a secondary insurer.
What I see from many on here commenting is: A) we are only supposed to pay taxes is to fund the military to protect citizens from outside invaders. B.) That is actually a waste of time, if our tax dollars do not also protect American citizens from the fox already in the hen house.
Having laws to protect people is one thing....having a level financial field to be able to win a lawsuit is another.
Did you miss the Jack Abramoff interview on 60 Minutes last night?
Good morning Jean2009,
I admire your fire! MY elderly Mom has that fire as well and has kept my Dad out of many a scape, so I do admire that! I really do. Look, I am a simple guy and since the title was 'MIlitary Families", that was all I was addressing. I understand there are those that need more government assistance than others. I know the elderly is preyed upon. I admit my focus was narrowed to fit the subject of "military families". I also know that even with some government intervention, some military families have still be foreclosed on! So yes, there are some that need more help than others. My point is even with help some will fall prey due to their own actions. I need not see the interview last night. I am not one who will say, the government has no place! At the same time, there are some who do not use their wits and are fully able to do so!
C-Lo,
While I agree that we do not need a nanny-state government (either Fed or State level) and there are provisions already in place to guard against some practices, you must agree there are times when a business has much deeper pockets than an individual. Taking someone to court isn't always the answer as today, it is more about who can hire the best lawyer more than who is actually right. I still think we need to either fill the top-spot of this agency or abolish the agency entirely. Why have it if it cannot do what it is designed to do? If it cannot "do it's job" because it is leaderless, then appoint a leader and let them lead.
Being from Ohio, I will say Richard Cordray is well qualified and a good and decent man. Maybe for the teapotty Rethugliklans they can't deal with good and decent.
Well Jean,
As a retiree from the Military I have seen plenty of situations that this Agency is set up to do.. There are already plenty of Protections in place but even then there are always a few Bad Apples out there. And as hard as people try sometimes they get rooked. I don't know why this Nominee is controversal and will leave it at that. Like it or not when it comes time for the little birds to leave the nest they have to fly and take their chances.
On another board we have been discussing who controls the world. For a History Lesson Google the KITCHEN DEBATES. Nuff said.
@Ray in Georgia
Might I remind you, I was already a quarter of a century old when Khrushchev and Nixon faced off in the "Kitchen Debate". As I see it communism didn't win and pure monopolistic capitalism is not working.
@DAK, you're right..I agree with everything you've said. Yes we all must work together to resolve the current problems our nation faces due to YEARS of failed policies, thoughtless decisions or just plain old irresponsibility and not giving a hoot! The old self-serving greedy establishment inside our government, with that old 'let's get ours while the getting is good' attitude! 'We'll worry about getting it paid for LATER' mentality! They are bloodsucking thieves! America has been pushed passed her means!
I'm like Jean...I really don't understand how the military of which the larger percentage of it falls in category of the 99%ers, continue to be so loyal and patriotic to these self-serving 'by any means necessary' crooks either! They're mainly of the poor to the middle-class section of the society. They're right in here with me. Along with losing their lives, being lamed, mentally and financially distraughted for power and greed of those 'ticks', they're hurting too! Now we're asked to give up our benefits!
There are those who take seriously their oath to support and defend the US Const-itution.
...Benefits that were promised us we'd be able to fall back on once we SERVED..once we WORKED, paid into 'the system' and retired, we'd at least live the rest of our lives on...the promises that America would make sure there would be funds available for the poor, seniors, handicapped, and disenfranchised (for whatever reasons) to sustain themselves, even to the most mediocre degree! We didn't reap any of the 'glorious' wealth and benefits, but they want us to pay the bill of the nations defaulted checkbook!
Jean...as long as their pockets stay 'fat', they don't care what happens to the vulnerable. They'd rather snatch what little we do have than to give up an extra dollar out of their own! We ARE the ones who're 'ENTITLED', but the thieves have flipped the script on us...! It's said..money talks, BS walks you know? Guess who the BS is? They're NOW the 'ENTITLEES', and for all sorts of fake reasons like 'jobs building'! They don't intend on putting America back to work...that's why it's so slow! PSYCHO TALK!
@steveo and Ray E. Georgia, I don't have any response to offer you two. Maybe I'm missing something...but to both of you and DAK too...I thank you for your 'service' to Americas' National Vital Interests. You do know who holds the keys to the door of our 'nations vital interests' don't you? Just know it's NOT our nations' 'OCCUPIERS'...err the 99%ers! However, I do still thank you for standing strong; ready to defend and protect us from 'outside' hurt, harm and danger; but we're being taken from within!
Well...Steveo...I know you're responding to jean2009, but could it be that those who never seem to learn maybe some of those who've just given up on life? Some of whom tried to dot all of the I's and cross all of the T's and still came up against closed doors anyway? BARS that had been raised once they got there? Depression, suppression, oppression set in; thereby causing many times the onset of addictions and other self-inflictions to the point of just not caring anymore? Jails, institutions, and death.
Yes Liz,
Sadly, they exist Liz no denying that! Let me explain before Jean or Trace hammer me for being insensitive!
It is sad that people have to live like that! Fully agree! At the same time Liz, there are those who are able bodied and just simply wait on a check. There are indeed folks who have tried and tried to no avail. There are those who don't try at all. What's the answer? I know there are those who are truly disadvantaged! There are also those who take advantage! Happy to chat with you anytime Liz!
Then there are some in our society who are blessed to get through the systems requirements and they are called elitist, and arrogant by others in our society and eventually are targets for character and professional assassinations. Many of them have ended up with nothing! It's like they never amounted to anything, ever. Everybody is not out there due to their own personal choices...some had bad hands dealt to them by the supremacy.
Hi liz,
No question about your post. There have also been those who have been dealt really bad hands but decided to write a new chapter in their lives by studying and working hard. Too many folks are defeated at the first sign of adversity! They drop out of school, which leads to either a lifetime of minimum wage or government assistance. Families are falling apart and we are raising another generation of folks who give up too easily! With that att-itude, we would have never had a Thomas Edison, Abraham Lincoln, Frederick Douglass, and yes a Barack Obama! The President himself said we are getting soft as a nation! I agree with him! BTW, thank you for appreciating my service.
Good morning Jean2009,
I admire your fire! MY elderly Mom has that fire as well and has kept my Dad out of many a scape, so I do admire that! I really do. Look, I am a simple guy and since the ti-tle was 'MIlitary Families", that was all I was addressing. I understand there are those that need more government assistance than others.
I know the elderly is preyed upon. I admit my focus was narrowed to fit the subject of "military families". I also know that even with some government intervention, some military families have still be foreclosed on! So yes, there are some that need more help than others. My point is even with help some will fall prey due to their own actions. I need not see the interview last night. I am not one who will say, the government has no place! At the same time, there are some who do not use their wits and are fully able to do so!
Lastly, Jean2009, my wife and children had no financial training either but what they do have is me! I passed onto then what I learned. It seems like the passing on of life lessons to the next generation is a dying art!
@Steveo; yes there are those who have given up too soon. Did you ever wonder WHY? Could it be due to 'generational' disappointments, demeaning degenerational reppurcussions, and let downs? Generational hate, disgust, and re-actions due to disenfranchisement due to A: Illiteracy, manytimes personal or attachments to the criminal justice system or relations thereof, thereby oftentimes causing depression, irresponsibility and plain old don't care-ism; satisfaction with just sitting down getting a little check.
No argument there! There is a story to tell in EVERY family, every culture! Liz, we are some of the most spiritual people on earth! We are going to have to start believing what we confess. Asians also have experienced the same things in their history! Yet they come here, take advantage of opportunities and succeed! Of course not all but a good number! Not making light of anything you said but we are going to have to get to a point where our past stops dictating our future! Easier said than done? For some yes and for others not so much! Some times the best revenge is success!
I don't understand why the various reasons or even if you may call them 'EXCUSES', aren't entered into the conversations or debates on the blog! Do you really think that AMERICANS, especially of a certain race are fully satisfied with their LOTS? Many of us have just come to terms with the 'lots' we have! Your BLESS-ED party's trying to take even THAT from us! We can take 'our taxpayer moneies' and send it to take care and support HEW for citizens in other countries, but we can't take care for our OWN?!?
Liz,
I don't think most people are satisfied with their lot. I do think there many who don't know what to do and only model the behaviors they are familiar with! We are too busy calling names to REALLY talk! I have already said neither party is the party of Jesus. Liz, Jesus called the church to take care of those who are in need! I am reading about many who are building multi-million dollars facilities, Rolexes, mansions, private jets and their own airfields all the while people in their own neighborhoods cannot pay their rent! i fully believe the government stepped in because we (Christians) stepped out! We stepped out and those with an agenda stepped in.
Liz, I remember a story about a woman on welfare in NYC. She wanted to pass on a better lifestyle to her daughter so she saved a portion of her check into an account for her daughter's education. The city found out she had money in savings and kicked her off the program. Shouldn't an attempt at self sufficiency be rewarded? I know that there are folks truly who need assistance. I also know that there are those who game system.
I personally know of a young able bodied women, sex outside of marriage resulted in a baby! She is now on government assistance and no she is not black! Somewhere personal responsibility is forgotten! Back in the day families took cares of each other and now families are a mess and the government does it!
I know I said a lot but somewhere government intervention removed consequences and now there are those who are able but refuse responsibility and I am not talking about grandma and grand dad,I'm not talking about the disabled either! I am talking about that 25 year old with six kids with six different women! Looking forward to your reply!
@Liz
Sorry for the double post (this was stuck in moderation). Originally written on November 8, 2011 at 7:24 pm
I don't think most people are satisfied with their lot. I do think there many who don't know what to do and only model the behaviors they are familiar with! We are too busy calling names to REALLY talk! I have already said neither party is the party of Jesus. Liz, Jesus called the church to take care of those who are in need! I am reading about many who are building multi-million dollars facilities, Rolexes, mansions, private jets and their own airfields all the while people in their own neighborhoods cannot pay their rent! i fully believe the government stepped in because we (Christians) stepped out! We stepped out and those with an agenda stepped in.
Liz, I remember a story about a woman on welfare in NYC. She wanted to pass on a better lifestyle to her daughter so she saved a portion of her check into an account for her daughter's education. The city found out she had money in savings and kicked her off the program. Shouldn't an attempt at self sufficiency be rewarded? I know that there are folks truly who need as-sistance. I also know that there are those who game system.
I personally know of a young able bodied women, sex outside of marriage resulted in a baby! She is now on government assistance and no she is not black! Somewhere personal responsibility is forgotten! Back in the day families took cares of each other and now families are a mess and the government does it!
I know I said a lot but somewhere government intervention removed consequences and now there are those who are able but refuse responsibility and I am not talking about grandma and grand dad,I'm not talking about the disabled either! I am talking about that 25 year old with six kids with six different women! Looking forward to your reply!
@Steveo, Yes. You're probably right to a degree; but Asians and no other race of people have had near the obstructional problems nor the disappointments and anguish of trying to succeed in AMERICA! Yes, there have been others who have come here on their OWN and met with obstacles; had to struggle until a door opened up for them, however, they weren't FORCED TO live up under the same extent of hate and biasness that others of us were! America is claimed to be the land of opportunity for some..What Happened?
Liz,
We know the background and history and we know it was difficult but we have had folks still make it. Why? How was it that Bill Cosby work his way to a Ph.D in education? Regardless of his politics and the fact you don't consider him "a real black man" how did Herman Cain , the son of a maid make it? I will tell you, Liz, There are some that point to the past and declare the past is the reason they will have no future! there are others who look back and say despite my past I will have a future! We all know live is not fair and even armed with that knowledge our young people are still dropping out of school at alarming rates. We are still birthing fatherless children at about a 75% clip. The past has nothing to do with that!
BTW, the Jews have a past too. My major issue is when one of us makes it because they thought differently we label them a "sellout". I remember a few years when Bill Cosby told us about ourselves. Instead of even considering what he said, he was labeled a sellout!
While we may not agree, I respect the tone of the conversation.
I'm going to get back to you Steveo asap. I read your posts and I do have responses but I got a little something going right now...will check back with you later.
Take your time! Looking forward to your replies!
Steveo..Yes you're right! Especially historically; many of whom who were barely even mentioned in our schools. There are a number of blacks, as well as whites and others who were able to raise themselves up out of a prejudiced-based biased society of hate, poverty, racism, gender-block, class-war, second and third classed education, nepotism, favoritism, association, disenfranchisement, income-restriction, pure bigotry and supremacy. However, I believe if you asked any one of those who are still among us..,
ctd@steveo...to be honest and just tell you the truth...they'd tell you it was ONLY by the Grace of GOD and the 'company they kept'; or their parents kept, or the families of the so-called 'superior race', who were God-fearing, God-serving business owners, for which their parents worked. That would even go all the way back to slavery! Some 'Massuhs' had a change of heart and actually tried to make amends by giving ex-slaves land, property and money! Some were afforded a better education for their children.
Liz,
It is ONLY by God's grace. The question is what do we do with God's grace? Do we ignore it as some how done, watching the world pass them by or do we use it as God intended, to be all we can be? I noticed you used the term "so-called superior race". If we were all created in the imagine of God there are none who are superior nor are they any who are inferior. Problem is when we keep hearing and repeating a lie long enough, we start treating it as the truth. No race is superior nor inferior. It is as if we place more importance on what a human said more than we do on what God has said!
ctd@Steveo...I'm just saying, everybody didn't get that generational 'hand-up' nor the where-with-all (not just finances) which to my mind would include..the 'right' (white) connections, (to even get in the door) hope, vision, desire, encouragement, a realistic goal, and at least a view of what successe looks like; even if a 'promise' can't be made that the end results will be successful! Everybody's not privvy to the much needed 'umption' or push...so yes..they become complacent and settle for their lots.
..Oh, I forgot to address your response to me about Bill Cosby and Herman Cain. I don't think they're cut from the same pattern when it comes to their life-successes, politics, nor their personal experiences, history, cultural or ethnical knowledge of our socio-connect or disconnect to the 'American Dream'. I heard Cosby when he came to FREDERICK DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL in ATLANTA. I thought he spoke truth to us. He did tell us like it was and still is for many of us and our children. He was 'dead on' for some!
ctd@Steveo, Yes Bill did succeed despite the odds and he has shown to the world that he genuinely and passionately wants his 'sisters and brothers' to do the same! So he took time out of his prosperous 'ALREADY SET' life to write a 'how to book' along with that professor (I can't think of his name right now) on what many of us will have to start doing, to give up, to change, reinvent, restart, and finish in order to just be able to humbly live in America! He told us success does require a litte bit more.
Liz,
Success is ALWAYS harder than failure. Success only comes when we eat , drink, sleep , and live it. It only comes when we push throught despite being told we can never make it! Thomas Edison comes to mind. He has more failures than success but he kept pressing.
Frederick Douglass also comes to mind. He was born a slave, learned to read and write, escaped from slavery and despite his skin color somehow ended up in the White House on a request from President Lincoln to advise him on the issue of slavery. Douglass ended up as a government officlal, the minister to Haiti. I don't know ANYBODY today, who had to overcome the same obstacles as he faced back then. It would have been so easy for Douglass to give up and blame "the man". instead, he became "the man". Success is ALWAYS harder than failure. Success requires an overcoming spirit, despite the odds! Failure requires nothing! Do nothing, be nothing! Those are the keys to failure!
..Bill told us that we had to start soewhere; in essence he was saying we had to change our way of thinking. I understand that and it is true! However, I still say that changing my thought processes which I have ardently tried to do does not change the truth! I know Bill was genuinely interested in helping us to see the error of OUR ways...which were and are YET blocking many of us from our total success; however...I will never accept full and total blame for my lot in this life, because it's NOT all mine!
ctd@Steveo...I, along with many of us have been able to acknowledge the truth and go on and make a life for ourselves in spight of the 'past'. We didn't just stop and lay down because of it, but yes...some of us got stuck in the mud..in the cycle of the 'quandry' of the side effects of the past. I can understand that; and that is why I will not let the past off the hook...EVER! I know it's being asked of us to..Oh say, just forget it move on, not applicable anymore; that's NOT true..it still with us today!
Never let the past off off the hook. The past should be a driver that propels us forward. One thing to not forget the past! A whole "nother" animal when we try to live it! I find it interesting that when we do look back we have this habit of looking past the heroes and successes. We laser focus on the negative! I don't hear anybody talking about Dr Charles Drew or folk like him. Heck, I had to research info on Frederick Douglass. Look, I agree don't forget the past. Again, it should be a motivator to drive us into the present and future. Some of us are stuck!
...I never thought Bill Cosby was a 'sellout'...I believe he was in the right spirit when he was out trying to actually pick us back up off the ground, impressing upon us the importance of not letting the past get in our way when it comes to making our marks in life, encouraging parents and children in essence to 'keep your head to the sky'. We shall overcome some day..but lest we forget the road our faters tread to bring us here...I won't be! Thank you GOD!
Herman Cain is the 'sellout'. He is an embarrasment to most intelligent thinking people. He's no where near a Bill COSBY when it comes to genuineosity so to speak! He is an arrogant, stupid, sap who couldn't care less about anyone but himself...PERIOD! CAIN AIN'T ABLE! LOL!
"Cain ain't Abel" is very clever. I need you to explain why Cain is a sellout. Is it because he is not liberal? When we embrace a "Groupthink" mentality, we shut the door on much knowledge and info that may be outside our comfort zone and what is familiar to us.
Herman Cain, the son of a maid, whose father worked three jobs took advantage of the opportunities given him. Did NOT drop out of school but degreed in mathematics! Held high positions in the business world. Yet is not recogized for his achievements but rather reviled because he dared to think differently! Liz, he grow up in the same south as you. Why is he a sellout? Politics? We are so busy "Uncle Tomming" those who dare to think differently. We are failing to realize, as they rise, the name calliers are at best, stagnant!
Liz and steveo–
I have been watching this exchange with great interest and (hopefully) learning something from it. I hope you don't find me out of line in adding a couple thoughts as an "outsider."
First, I've been emmensly curious about the answers to the same questions steveo is asking regarding "sellouts" or "Uncle Toms." Here's kind of how I see things and why–
When I was in college, I worked a summer job doing maintenence at an inner-city school. There were teenagers (15-17) I worked along side of different races (black, hispanic, white), but all from the inner-city (read "poor") where I was from a middle-class suburbian family. The distain toward me was not as much racially motivated as it was culturally.
This has led me to the belief that much of the nation is not as much racially divided as it is culturally/economically divided. Because of our history, a disproportionate number of blacks fall into the lower end of the economic scale, therefore economic disparity is further construed as racial.
Now don't read this to mean I dismiss racism, or believe it doesn't exist either overtly or covertly. But I guess my point is, whether it is the "black community" calling one of their own "Uncle Tom" for embracing the "white" culture, or the "white community" calling one of their own a "RIC" for embracing "black or hispanic" culture, is it really "racially" motivated or is the true issue economics.
Yes I realize this post is "racially" charged, and purposefully so to hopefully spark thought and more discussion. Because if racism is really a symptom of classism, and I don't know if it is, then we are attacking the issues from the wrong perspective, i.e. we are giving tylonol to reduce the fever of an infection rather than antibiotics to eleminate the infection causing the fever.
C-Lo ,
As far as i am concerned a "outside" or neutral point of view is welcomed. As Liz, is a southern girl and I am a northern city guy, we grow up in differing environments. Mine was in a multi-cultural neighborhood. That is what I knew! What I am hearing in certain outlets is Cain is a sellout out and uncle Tom. I believe the reason is political. The reason I say that is these words are mostly coming from those who share the same overall culture AND economics. to mee the primary difference is poltics. At our level, economics is a major player.
I have a Master's Degree. That doesn't make me better, it makes me different. I took advantage of opportunities before me. I had parents who were determined that my life would be better than theirs. While economics is a huge issue, it (to me) it is also a matter also of thinking differently (politics). Nobody is calling Sharpton and Jackson sellouts or Uncle Toms! Although the culture maybe the same and the economics different, the glue that holds it altogther is politics! My faith and background is what causes me to think differently. That is just me!
Interesting...I guess I've always thought of political ideology being driven by cultural/economic factors, not the other way around, or seperately, as you seem to suggest. This is a different realm for me to consider, although I will have a hard time seeing how these different areas (economics, culture, race and politics) are not tightly interwoven.
On second thought, they are all fully connected, so I guess it would be an interesting study in any one or all of the fields to see how each influences the other. Sounds like the grounds for a masters, or even PhD thesis in any number of fields.
I guess then my questions to you from your comment of it being political would be, is Cain being framed this way just for the left to "discredit" him among African Americans (aside from the s-as.sault allegations), or is this truly how he's seen by the majority of the "black" culture? Liz, I believe, would point to the latter.
C-Lo,
Al I can do is give you what I see from where sit. Liz and others with probably have a different take on this than mine, which is expected and welcomed. I am not discounting your theory. I just see it a bit differently. To answer your question I will offer up three names:
Clarence Thomas
Alan Keyes
Herman Cain
All three are black men , all three raised differenty, all three doing well, economically. All three poltically conservative.
You said " I guess I've always thought of political ideology being driven by cultural/economic factors, not the other way around, or seperately". I would agree that all these factors are tightly interconnected. I just think there are situations and circumstances when one factor becomes more dominant than the others!
C-Lo,
Al I can do is give you what I see from I where sit. Liz and others with probably have a different take on this than mine, which is expected and welcomed. I am not discounting your theory. I just see it a bit differently. To answer your question I will offer up three names:
Clarence Thomas
Alan Keyes
Herman Cain
All three are black men , all three raised differenty, all three doing well, economically. All three poltically conservative.
You said " I guess I've always thought of political ideology being driven by cultural/economic factors, not the other way around, or seperately". I would agree that all these factors are tightly interconnected. I just think there are situations and circ-umstances when one factor becomes more dominant than the others!
As for your question about Cain goes, I think the way is was raised formulated his thinking as a conservative. I really believe the simple fact he is a conservative turns many off to him, just like the two others I mentioned. I would guess, the latter! Political conservatism does not resonate well in the Black community. It just doesn't!
Thanks for the feedback. I'm just a small fish in a big pond, but would love to see this country as a whole get past the race issue. Not in ignoring it, but solving it to the point where it is seen as an individual trait and not a cultural trait. I think it would go a long way to us all working together to solve the "bigger" issues.
I hope to hear Liz weigh in on this because of what I understand of her background. Additionally, Liz if you come back to this post, I'd like to hear what your ideas for solutions to these issues are. I mean, you cannot go around and tell people to just stop being racist, nor can (in my opinion) you paint every clash of opinions as racist...which you don't, but a lot of folks do. Please chime in with your thoughts!
Hi Steveo/C-Lo; yes this debate does make for a multi-faceted research project as the initial basis of a 'dissertation'! However, thesis and dissertations have been written. I've read one or two papers from friends of mine, who were working on their masters and doctorate years ago; back in the late 60s, when I was in school. Steveo, I know the accomplishments of many AAs, including FREDERICK DOUGLASS, DR CHARLES DREW, BOOKER T WASHINGTON, GEORGE WASHINGTON CARVER, RICHARD ALLEN, BENJAMIN BANNEKER and more!
I know the accomplishments of many AAs, including FREDERICK DOUGLASS, DR CHARLES DREW, BOOKER T WASHINGTON, GEORGE WASHINGTON CARVER, RICHARD ALLEN, BENJAMIN BANNEKER and more!
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I'm not doubting that you know. I'l bet the young ones don't! They know Kayne West, Jay Z and the like! Nothing wrong with that but they are missing a great deal of info. The reason I mentioned those heroes is because they ALL rose above in spite of what they faced! No government hand outs and not much by way of a hand up either. Yet they overcame. We, all of us and not just blacks, have lost that spirit! We have became more dependent and less independent! That is the shame! Too many of us have the belief that someone owes us! Those folks we mentioned did not believe that! Cain, also rose above yet due to politics cannot get any recognition from our community for what he accomplished. We'd rather celebrate ball players who can hardly read or write or rappers degrading women!
...SOJOURNER TRUTH, MARY McCLEOD BETHUNE, MARION ANDERSON, BESSIE SMITH, W E B DUBOIS..hey I can go on and on, but do to the space and time, I'd like to say I that we hail all of our AA 'heroes' and drum-majors of the movement and struggle. My mother was a historian/archivist of American history. Her passion though was AA History; so since they didn't teach it in our public schools, she taught us OUR history and required us to study it at home, the library, as OLD AAs would give us their old history books!
You asked me why I thought Herman Cain was a 'sellout'. For me, I'd never fit him into the group of African Americans Heroes I just named because it seems to me he was handed his success through affirmative action on a 'silver platter', for NOT participating as an 'OCCUPIER' during the CIVIL RIGHTS STRUGGLE in the south! We occupied WOOLWORTHS, FOX THEATER, BUS SYSTEM, etc. CAIN hid out behind the scenes! I was a participant; my mother was one. We marched with KING, ABERNATHY, JACKSON, the FREEDOM RIDERS...
You do realize Affirmative Action is the baby of YOUR party, right? AA may have opened a door but Cain had to study and work himself. The anger at Cain is all about his politics.
What ever Cain's reasons for not actively participating in the Civil Rights movement is his and his alone. I know that not everybody could have been upfront. I saw C-Lo's anology about the vehicle. Tthere is a ton of truth in what he said. Thank God for those up front and yet they had support from those in the rear (just like a military unit).
CAIN's about a couple of years older than I am. I was in school too! We were a few campuses apart. Actually, the student activist and civil rights participant, Actor Samuel L Jackson was also at MOREHOUSE...they were probably in the same class. Jackson was an 'occupier'; he was very heroic in pulling together demonstrations against social injustices, inequality and the Vietnam War! We students from all the schools that made up the ATLANTA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL SYTEM came together to participate in the causes!
Yes! He secured a good life for himself but off of whose backs, whose stand, whose loud cries, whose battering, and even whose deaths? In the south...people died for him to live! And for the ones who hadn't found the success that he has...he has the 'conservative' GOP/TEAPARTY gall to say if we aren't rich like him it's our fault! The people I named would never have said that...as a matter of fact they reached back for their own and helped to pull them up. CAIN berates blacks just like bigoted whites do!
The man disgraced and denounced his own black 3 job working father by even claiming publicly that he was 'a Koch brother from another mother...and proud of it'! So what does that make his hard working maid mother? You see he is nothing else but a fool and yes I believe he did those things to thise women...the only reason the GOP may have wanted to take him on is because if all other avenues had failed, he was stupid and they could have puppetized him and REALLY told him what to do like they did Bush!
Interesting points Liz...thanks for the input. As an alternative to the points you made here about Cain specifically, as you did not address others (like Condi Rice, Clarence Thomas, Chris Gardner, etc.), I'll offer this...
You've made it appear as an either/or proposition, i.e. either you (the AA communit) stood with the "resistance" and marched, yelled, protested and gained your voice that way, OR you sold out to the "white" culture and became an "Uncle Tom." What if (and I know you like annalogies) the whole movement was more like a vehicle...some were the wheels hitting the pavement, the shiney exterior, chrome, what everyone sees (the protesters)...while others were the engine, working unseen turning the cranks. In other words each had a roll in moving the black community forward–one couldn't have succeeded without the other, or at least as well as it did.
Not to mention his contributions to his alma mater, church and other charities benefiting primarily minorities. I don't know maybe it's just because of my "whiteness" that I don't understand how anyone could snub any successes legally and morally achieved, particularly when it comes to overcoming adversities. I haven't seen anything suggesting his rise to CEO was the result of anything but hard work and dedication (i.e. he wasn't handed the keys to the palace, nor cheated his way to the top).
The man disgraced and denounced his own black 3 job working father by even claiming publicly that he was 'a Koch brother from another mother...and proud of it'
----------–
Strongly, strong disagree. That no way berates or denounces his parents! He was saying his politics is in line with theirs. I think you are reading too much into that. In fact, as a whole, the AA community treats all AA conservatives like red-headed step children. It's called groupthink! Groupthink allows for no innovation, no growth and will overtime destroy an organization! It's like "think like me or your a sellout or uncle tom"! To me that is truly sad!
@Steveo; You may have a point. However, that's still my view and I was just giving you AN angle! 'A Koch brother by another mother'. OK! Soooo, had it been ANY OTHER black man who said that; one who wasn't 'running for President, (actually selling books like Palin was doing), one who hadn't publicly devulged his party politics/ideology, some of us would've known right then 'who he was'! Oh, I strongly disagree with your claim that the AA community treats all AA conservatives like red-headed stepchildren...
Would you settle for "most" instead of "all"? LOL!
...My mother was a Proud Republican. She was an Abraham Lincoln Republican! Most AAs in the South WERE loyalist to the Republican Party because we loved 'GOOD OLE ABE'! Why? He signed the 'Emancipation Proclamation' BILL that was made law, that set us free from slavery! They even tried to take that accomplishment from him, when he said himself...'AS I WOULD NOT BE A SLAVE, I WILL NOT BE A SLAVE MASTER'. Today, Lincoln himself would have to change his party affiliation. Why? That party is DEFUNCT! GONE!
...My Mother fought hard in the south for a two-party system to be installed here! We had DixieDems only! Back then she was hailed by many AAs and whites..OK? Although my Father was a Roosevelt Democrat, she was an active member of The National Republicans Womens Assoc; traveled with others to those womens conventions in WASHINGTON under Nixon and Reagan. So don't tell me ALL AAs are treated like red-headed step-children. It's simply not true! It's about reasonable conviction not conservative ideology!
BTW..Steveo, didn't you just get through trying to spank me for using the word 'ALL' in another post? Which I hadn't anyway? You said you didn't like to use it because it's 'not everybody'! Watch out now! LOL! However, you do see how easy it is to do now don't you? What's sad is...the continous bickering back and forth that you continue to try to have with me when it's obvious you're a conservative thinking CAIN person and I'm a liberal/progressive OBAMA person! Colin Powell COULD be the Republican for me!
I guess I'm busted! Something about that "human factor". You got me and i apologize. Darn good memory you got there!
I do like Cain BUT, I don't see him getting the nomination!
Colin Powell would have been a fine choice. From what I understand, Mrs Powell just wanted a normal and i don't blame her.
make that normal life!
Groupthink? 'It's like..think like me or your a sellout or uncle tom'. Is that what you've deduced our debates down to? I don't mean to make you think like me...I'm just telling you all what I think from where I'm sitting; and much of it is what I know from what I've seen, heard and experienced! You'll never be able to think like I do, simply because you will never walk in my shoes, not to even mention the shoes of the ancestors! Just know, they're all watching this whole exchange and Dog & Pony Show! LOL!
Very few things are absolute. There are even some degree of variables in groupthink. You do have to admit conservative blacks think differently politicallyand are treated with disdain by the AA community, as a whole.! I really don't know of one who isn't.
I know you are not trying to make me think like you, I'm not saying that I was speaking in generalities. We do have differing experiences and that colors our thinking! I would say,that I am not boiling down our discussions because we think differently but are very civil towards each other! Based on what I have see on these blogs, that is too rare!
Hey C-Lo; You're welcome..but to your alternative points to mine, your vehicle analogy was a pretty good one, except vehicle's engine crank-turner working unseen was us, the 'occupiers'...CAIN was the one we were driving to his successful accomplishments in the shiny interior, chrome wheels. He berated and denounced US! Where did you get his 'charity' information from? Even If any of it is true, it's no more than what most of us AAs church going people and alumni do for our alma maters and churches!
Liz, the point I was tryinng to make with my analogy was not today's "struggle" but that of the 50's 60's, which, mind you, I only know from history books and documentries as I am a young 40. What I was trying to say is that the demonstrators were the "face" of your movement during that time, what was held out for everyone to see–ie you don't walk up to a 79 Pinto and ask to look under the hood! Meanwhile there were those who stayed quiet and out of sight working to better themselves individually which SHOULD be admired as an accomplishment not unlike how you view Obama. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.
As far as his charitible giving, the information was in an article on the huffington post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/24/herman-cains-charity_n_934996.html, who you would think would be angling it to discredit him given its slant. One charity was in Omaha and has felt the sting since he stopped funding them. He helped raise over $118 million to Morehouse college. The article cites others who say he doesn't sprinkle his money around but gets behind one or two causes and goes fully in on them.
Interesting read, and I ask only that you read it knowing the source is hostile toward conservatives. Yes, we all give to our various causes (or many of us do) but read the article about his reasonings for his gifting and I think it discounts your idea that he's a "sellout" but rather sees an opportunity to empower blacks through a different method. Of course this is coming from my view through my own "rose colored glasses."
Alright Steveo...thankyou for all but repeating what I just told you. It let's me know you must agree with me, at least on that part of my comment. You just described what I just told you. We'd never see or view issues the same because, there is a 23 year difference in our ages and I'm sure experiences. I just heard your man HERMAN CAIN say 'We need a leader not a reader'! It may serve him well to sit down and read a little bit before he opens his BIG mouth again, PUBLICLY to media. LOL! He's so pitiful!